20. Linda Simensky - Exec at Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, PBS and now Duolingo!

Join me for this in depth conversation with Linda Simensky, discussing her incredible career, including adventures as an exec at Nick, Cartoon Network, PBS and her new gig at Duolingo as Head of Animation and Scripted Content at Duolingo.

One of the many things Linda and I touched on was the lack of books about becoming a producer or an executive. If you want to become an artist or an animator, there are a lot out there. But books on other jobs in the industry are few and far between, and that's now. There certainly wasn't when Linda was starting out. 

Obviously now, even without books, there are a lot more ways to learn about these other roles in the industry, including podcasts like this. I feel like hearing Linda talk about how she approached being a development exec with a heart for creators is something we rarely get to hear, so whether you're an artist or an aspiring exec or just a fan of Linda's work, I know you'll get a lot out of this as we walk through her career and talk about what she's doing in her new role at Duolingo.

Please remember to like, rate and comment on your favourite podcasting platform and share the episode on social media.

If you have any comments or suggestions please get in touch. 

Host & Producer: Michael Wakelam (@mikewakelam)

Executive Producer: Eric M. Miller

Music by: Rich Dickerson (www.richdickerson.com)

Audio Engineering: Mike Rocha


Edited by: Zoe Wakelam

The Creators Society is a professional society for all disciplines of the animation industry. Our mission is to bring the animation community together to build strong relationships, provide education, and form a better understanding of the different roles we all play in creating animated stories. We celebrate and promote the love of animation, and all the talented Creators who breathe life and imagination into their work.

Learn more about the Creators Society, and how to become a member at creatorssociety.net

Transcript

Linda Simensky: 0:14

And so what I started to realise was that he knew we couldn't just take it. But if he could walk in to someone's office at Nick and say Cartoon Network says they'll take this, it would light a fire under them.

Michael Wakelam: 0:30

Hello, and welcome to The Creators Society Animation Podcast. I'm Michael Wakelam. If you're tuning in for the first time, I know you'll really enjoy going back and listening to some of our previous episodes. We've had guests from across the industry, from writers and creators to producers, artists, animators, and composers. And we have a bunch of great guests on the way, including today's guest, Linda Simensky. Linda's career has intertwined with and been really integral to an enormous amount of great content across Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network, and PBS. One of the many things Linda and I touched on was the lack of books on becoming a producer or an executive. If you want to become an artist or an animator, there's a lot out there, but books on producing, they're few and far between. And that's now There certainly wasn't when Linda was starting out. Obviously now, even without books, there are a lot more ways to learn about these other roles in the industry, including podcasts like this. I feel like hearing Linda talk about how she approached being a development exec with a heart for creators is something we rarely get to hear about. So whether you're an artist or an aspiring exec, or just a fan of Linda's work, I know you'll get a lot out of this as we walk through her career and talk about what she's doing in her new role at Duolingo. Before we get into that, if you enjoy the podcast, please share it with friends and colleagues in the industry and like, rate, or comment, wherever you get your podcast. Now let's jump into that conversation with Linda Simensky. Welcome, Linda. Thanks for joining me today.

Linda Simensky: 1:58

Hi, Michael, thank you for inviting me. I'm really excited to be part of this. I've been enjoying your other episodes. So thank you.

Michael Wakelam: 2:06

Now, when it comes to talking about your career, there's some shall we say a lot to get through. You've been a really big part of kids been entertained, since you know, the early Nickelodeon days through Cartoon Network, PBS. And now your new gig at Duolingo, which is super interesting. And I want to talk about all of that. And I want to get through as much as we can in time that we have. But as we always like to do we like to hit rewind and go back to where it all started for you. And you know, often our guests say it started early, like junior high or high school. But for you it was even earlier, wasn't it?

Linda Simensky: 2:40

My mother always tells the story that I started watching cartoons when I was three. And actually I I like to go back to a picture of me at age two dressed as Tweety Bird. And I always think of that as the start of my career. But I, in my baby book at age three, it said loves to watch cartoons. And I thought, Okay, well. And so I guess that is where it started. I watched a lot of cartoons. But the key thing is that I continued watching them after it was, you know, there's a point where there was a point when I was growing up where, you know, kids stopped watching cartoons and became teenagers, and did cool things. And I kept watching cartoons. And I remember, like a great bonding moment in middle school where I was standing with a bunch of friends, and we were doing Bugs Bunny imitations. And I was so excited, because it was one of those first moments where I really felt like, you know, connected to people, I guess you could say, because they all like the same thing I liked. And I guess you know, we'd never really talked about cartoons growing up, you know, it was just something you did, but not something you necessarily discussed on the playground. So I remember that being a great bonding moment. But yes, I continued watching, specifically, Warner Brothers cartoons, you know, the Looney Tunes, they were my after school ritual. And then, you know, when I, when I had things I did after school, I still, you know, watched the Bugs Bunny show on Saturday mornings when I could fit it in. And it was, you know, a sort of a sacred event watching this. And I took a filmmaking class, and I wanted to try animating in it. And that was the point where I realised that I really was not cut out for animating. I did not have the patience. I sat there and I did it, but I was not happy doing it. And I had that same thought probably a million people have had, which is I wish this could someone could figure out a way to do this more quickly.

Michael Wakelam: 4:45

When did you take that class?

Linda Simensky: 4:46

I was about 16 When I did that. And so that was when I realised that I was not going to be an animator. The world didn't need one more mediocre, grumpy and animator. And what I didn't understand at the time was that, you know, not everyone in the animation industry is an animator. And there were no books out about animation at that point. Or certainly, if the ones that were out were about how to draw, they were not about how the industry worked. And the you know, the sort of the, the implication was, if you wanted to work in the animation industry, you were going to be drawing, and you were going to be working for Disney or Hanna Barbera. And I didn't really get too excited about either of those things. But I think the thing that really was interesting to me was independent film. And I can remember my, my mother pointing out to me every time like there was an independent film that was running somewhere on TV, like when the film I think it was Sundae in New York came out, I remember my mom it's the Jimmy Picker film, I remember my mom showing me that I started to understand that there were different kinds of animation. And that there were, you know, not everybody was doing Saturday morning cartoons or Disney films that, you know, there were the other things that existed, but I didn't really know how to see them. And then, at one point in college, the the Tourné e of Animation came through. And I remember sitting and watching all of these independent films, and they were all, they were all animated. And it was they were all different styles, it was all the independent films that had won awards over the last year or two. And it was touring colleges. And that's how people used to see animated independent animation back then. And so I remember seeing all these different things and thinking, Okay, I don't know how I will do it. But I somehow want to work in this part of animation. Like, this is interesting to me. And I have no idea how it all works. But this is what I want to do. One thing I had noticed was that the films that I liked the best in that screening, all were from the National Film Board of Canada. And so I did the obvious thing that summer, and I wrote to the film board, and I asked him, you know, for some information about how their films get made, and, and they sent me this, this, this pamphlet and this booklet about how films got made and how their films got made. And it was really very interesting. And at one point, I took a really late lunch, and I was interning it at Viking Jr. Books that summer, which was a great job. I loved it. But I went out to because I saw that the library which was a few blocks away with screening some film. And before the film, they were going to screen a National Film Board of Canada film it was it was The Bead Game by Ishu Patel. And so I went in and I watched the short and then I left. And I remember thinking, Okay, this is how you have to see films, you know, you had to follow all of the schedules, and then you know, track down the films and go see them in theatres. And people didn't really have VCRs themselves at this point, you know, just people in the industry, I guess and then as VCRs became more credible, and more stuff started to get released on tapes, and then that became how you could see films, although for the new films, you did have to wait for the Tournée of Animation to come around again. So for a long time, that was how I saw films, but it definitely got me interested in figuring out how do you, how do you combine these really cool styles and these, you know, like, and they were international films. So how do you how do you find these interesting filmmakers? And and combine these really cool styles? With what people are watching on TV? Why couldn't TV be a lot cooler than it actually is? Why is TV so young skewing and boring? And those are the kinds of things that I was wondering about. And I honestly, I had no real idea about how I was going to answer that question. But that was the question that had formed in my mind. And when I was in middle school I had, I told my parents that I wanted to write for Bugs Bunny. That was my, like, career goal that I remember my mom's saying, 'Yeah, I don't think that's in production anymore. But you know, maybe you could do something like that.' And so in the course of my college time, I had a couple of summer jobs that all propelled me towards where I ultimately ended up so the summer after Viking, I worked at Warner Brothers. They had an East Coast Film Office and they they mostly just reviewed the, they reviewed some screenplays, but a lot of books like a lot of publishers and agents in New York, were sending stuff over to the New York office. And there were a bunch of people there who were reviewing things and writing screenings and, and, you know, being involved with the New York scene. And so I, with that job, I did a lot of reviewing. And at one point, I met someone from MTV Networks, an HR person in an elevator, believe it or not, I mean, that's how-

Michael Wakelam: 10:31

I love those meetings.

Linda Simensky: 10:33

Yeah, yeah, we just got talking. And within seven floors, as she pointed out, she was doing HR for MTV Networks. And, and so I basically got off the at the same floor and kind of followed her to her office, got her card, told her I, you know, I wanted to see if I could be an intern there the next summer, and basically kept in touch with I think it's those jobs where you have to do a bit of her. And then she was the one who, who got me for the next summer when I was looking for work. Now, Nickelodeon was very, very new at this point, there were maybe twenty people who worked there. But there was a producer named Paula Levine and she needed some help. She needed some production help. She needed someone a few days a week to just come in and, you know, help her and organise things and, you know, answer her phone, things like that. And they hired me to do that. So I was a, you know, a temp, essentially. And, you know, I went in a few days a week and worked for her, but I got to know everybody at Nick and I got to go to, remember they had acquired Belle and Sebastian, the cartoon. And they were, they were editing it for air. So they were formatting it. And so I remember going to a studio called Charlex and sitting there and watching the whole process of formatting, you know, how you take a cartoon from another place and formatted for your air, you know, trim it down and do all those kinds of things. So, so that was really interesting. And she was working on, You Can't Do That On Television, and Mr. Wizards World, so I was, you know, making calls for her. And it was, it was really great. But it was it was particularly great being at Nickelodeon, at a point where Nick was so young, and it really there couldn't have been more than twenty people there. And so I remember thinking, yeah, this is this is where I'd like to work. I was very interested in kids TV, I had this feeling that if anyone was going to do interesting, in kids TV, it would be Nickelodeon. And you can tell they were they were doing a lot of thinking that summer they were working on, they were just starting to think about rebranding. And they were doing a lot of work. And sometimes I would be typing up those, you know, back then you typed up memos, be typing up memos and documents for them and they'd be about kids and brands and things like that. And it was all very interesting. I learned a lot. And it made me want to go back there. So I didn't, I didn't get to go back there immediately. They didn't have any jobs open when I first got out of school. So I worked at Showtime for a little over a year in the programming department as as an executive assistant for Peter Chernin. Interestingly enough, I was his East Coast assistant, and I worked for a few other people as well. And, and when a job opened up at Nick in the programming department, as a scheduler, I moved over so I was being a scheduler, what was there were two of us. I scheduled Nick from 6am to 8pm. And she took over and scheduled Nick at Night from 8pm to 6am. And basically, you know, we'd sort of we had these, these very early computers that, you know, didn't have very much memory. And you know, we input the you know, the episodes that were running, we'd figure out, you know, which episodes we're going to run, and we'd been we'd schedule the promos around them, and then someone else would plug in all the commercials. And then we'd fiddle with the schedule until the schedule had the show's beginning roughly on the hour or on the half hour, you know, that had to you had to put filler in or things like that. And so, so that was my start at Nick, not very exciting, not very sexy, but someone had to do it. And I learned a lot. everything that you learn a bit of everything and are able to launch into I guess the area that you're most most interested in, but what was the vibe like it at Nick? You know, the culture. What was it like in those early days when there was twenty or so people there? It was fantastic. It was one of my favourite parts of my career because it was all these people. You know, by the time I came back, there were maybe 40 people there. And it was all these people who were just very excited about what they were doing. And at that point, Double Dare had just premiered. And it was doing really well. And everyone was very excited about that. And there was this feeling that, you know, like, the broadcaster's had had kind of let kids down, they, you know, the cartoons in the 80s weren't very good. In many cases, you know, some were good, but a lot of them weren't very good. And they were really, a lot of them were connected to products at that point, or movies, you know, there weren't very many original things. And there was this sense that we would, when we had the money, we would do better, because we were really focused on our audience and knowing our audience and focused on doing great work and being creative. And, and there was just a sense of, you know, being the underdog, and but having all these ideas and having this brand that was becoming a really cool brand, you know, thanks to Double Dare, I think, you know, suddenly people were understanding that, that, that Nick was about fun. And it was really for kids. And so there was a, there was a lot of thinking about the audience. And that's where I, I learned about the importance of really just focusing on your audience and not worrying about anything other than, you know, are you doing something that is good for your audience that they will enjoy? The vibe was great. I mean, it was a small group of people, and everyone was pretty much in sync with what we were trying to do. And Gerry Laybourne was a really great leader, she was really, it wasn't just that she was smart, or that, you know, she put together a good team or anything. She had this way of thinking where she would take whatever you were doing. And she would ask you a question that you didn't anticipate, no matter how prepared you were, she would figure out a way to kind of twist it around. And, you know, it was a different way of thinking. And it really, really affected how I think, like, I do the same thing a lot of the time, and people don't expect the things that I ask about or that I say and I always think Well, that's, you know, going back to those days of Nick. So, you know, just imagine a company where, you know, a lot of people think like that, and a lot of people ask questions like that. And so it was a really interesting way of thinking. And so I, I liked that. So I you know, I had a good time there. And I talked about animation a lot, just because I liked it so much. I was always going to see things and I was always talking about things. And in that time, Roger Rabbit came out. And Tracy Ullman came out. So the Simpson shorts were running. And those two things excited me a lot. And I was I was starting to feel like, you know, we were on the edge of something, you know, it was like the start of something great. And Nickelodeon was starting to have enough money to start thinking about what sorts of if they were to do animation, what sorts of things they would want to do. And I was lucky enough to be able to get into the new department, the animation department, I was the second member of the department. And I remember they said to me, so do you want to work on development or production? I said, development, and really based on the idea that I had never done animation production, but I had worked on development before in my summer jobs. I had read and reviewed a lot of things. So I understood how to do that. And I had a lot of ideas about what kinds of shows I want to see. I had reached out to Klasky Csupo when the Simpsons had started on Tracy Ullman, I had seen an ad that they had put out and then they said they were doing the Simpsons shorts on Tracey Ullman call for their real. So I called for their reel, even though I had, you know, at the time, I was still just a scheduler and and you know, but you know, I was curious to see their reel so I called for it and then they called me back and I was like, hey, but they were coming to New York. And they were like, can we stop by and I said yeah, sure. And so. So it was Gábor Csupó and the guy named Larry Le Francis who was his, his sales guy and I gave him the two of them a tour of the Nick offices and I introduced them to everyone and it you know, it created the illusion that I actually knew people in the animation industry in LA. And so you know, when I, when I got moved into that department out of scheduling, it was, there was a sense that even though I may not have been working in that area that I, I knew more about the animation industry than a lot of other people in the office. And, you know, I knew people in LA and New York, which I did know the New York animation industry through ASIFA. So I seemed to know more people than a lot of other people did so. So that was good. And then we did reach out to Klasky Csupo when we started doing development, and of course, you know, they, they pitched a number of shows, and one of those shows was Rugrats.

Michael Wakelam: 20:37

And that's, I mean, going back to, to what you were saying earlier about wanting to marry those really cool styles with, you know, TV animation, and you were able to, you know looking at those early years of Nick, you really kind of came out of the gates with some interesting, you know, styles and doing interesting things and Ren and Stimpy, as well. So, you really had that opportunity, didn't you to put those thoughts into practice? Oh, yeah.

Linda Simensky: 21:05

Yeah, well, it was, it was interesting to watch how it all unfolded, I, I was not the original architect of the big idea of, of Nicktoons. That was, it was Gerry and Herb and of course, Gerry's husband, Kit Laybourne, who, who is an animator, and Fred Seibert, who was, you know, a master branding genius. And, you know, a couple of other people who really came up with the big idea of Nicktoons, it wasn't even Nicktoons yet, it was just still Nick Animation, but that it would be creator driven, and that there would be room for all different styles. And once they gave us that remit, then it was pretty easy. So you know, bringing in a company like Klasky Csupo and saying, you know, do this in whatever style is, is interesting, and is what you'd like to draw and you know, like, it didn't have to look like everything else, it could look like something different. And I personally wanted everything to look as different from, you know, the things that were running on the broadcast network as possible. I wanted things to look like independent films, not too weird, you know, nothing, nothing inaccessible, but just, you know, fun and interesting styles. And people would always say, and it'll be fast paced, and I'd say no, no it should be well paced. But, but people back then are always saying it'll be fast. And I think that's because the stuff on, you know, the network's was just kind of boring to watch. Like, it wasn't, there wasn't a lot of fun animation is just all kind of the same looking and all sort of, sort of boring. And that was not the fault of the animators, it was really the fault of whoever was trying to keep things from being too interesting. And I don't I don't know, who was, you know, stopping, but certainly there were great animators back then I think they just didn't have the freedom to, to really push things. And at Nick, everyone wanted to push things. So when when I was developing Rocko's Modern Life, I remember being attracted to it, because to me, it you know, I'd looked at Joe's short, Joe Murray's short, My Dog Zero, and it felt like something that could have been, you know, a film board film, and I started to realise what I personally was looking for was to cross Looney Tunes with the film board, and that was going to be my taste, you know, that was my taste at that point was, you know, how do we do these two things? How do you mix that anarchy with that sort of attention to style and detail? And, and you know, both of them had great timing, both entities. And so how do you pull all of that together? So that remained my, my, sort of personal marching orders through Cartoon Network as well. You know, went once to cartoon, I remember thinking that I, you know, I really liked the style that Cartoon Network was working in at that point, but I also felt that there was a lot of room for experimentation. So, you know, for all of those UPA influenced thick lined projects, there could be an equal number of different looking shows, and we tried a lot of different things. In both jobs, I got to try a lot of different things. And, you know, not everything works for kids. Some things were a little too sophisticated. Some things were probably a little too weird. But, you know, over time, we started to figure out that, you know, you could have a range of styles and, you know, it could still be you know, the air could still look like an animation festival. But if you, if you took it all in one day's worth of animation you know, you would have that, have a lot of diversity there.

Michael Wakelam: 25:11

I mean, obviously, you know, nowadays we have the we have YouTube and Vimeo or whatever to see all of those different styles. But I also just love going to Annecy and seeing, you know, seeing all those different styles on big screens, you know, still being able to experience that in a theatre. So, by the time you got, I guess to put it probably was 97 or 98, I guess when when SpongeBob was was first pitched, but you worked on Rocco's modern life with Stephen Hillenburg was directing there. And now I have part of this story I guess from Andy Rheingold's interview that we did last year, we spoke about the SpongeBob pitch but I'm always interested to hear different perspectives and thoughts on the early life of SpongeBob. Considering you know where it is today.

Linda Simensky: 26:05

Yeah, I have a couple of good stories. One of them, I don't think is very well known at Nick. So I'll tell that story. But yes, I worked with Steve on Rocko's Modern Life. I actually met him before he worked there. He had, he had done a couple of independent films. And he was he was doing the festival circuit with those films. And so I met him somewhere along the way. And he got hired to work on on Rocko. And he, he you could tell, you know, he was a very funny guy and a great director and a really nice guy. And we had, we had talked about giving him a development deal. So, so this was at some point, in the first half of 1995. We, I remember, he and I went out to lunch, and we went to Sushi Nozawa, which is was like an animators hanging out on Ventura Boulevard. And, and ironically, what I remember was the I think the Stone Roses held, the second album had just come out. And we were having we had a very detailed discussion about how they were never going to be able to top the first album. So it just remember, like, the detail of that conversation. And then we started talking about, you know, I said, I'd said that Nick wanted to offer him a development deal. And he said, great, you know, he was excited to do that. And he, he said, he had this idea. And he said, it's about a sponge, who lives in the water. And, and I remember thinking, huh, like, it wasn't immediately evident that this was going to be great. But I figured, well, you know, he's a funny guy who'll make it funny. And then my, my part of SpongeBob was, was was basically that, because then I left for Cartoon Network. Not long after that. I left so I didn't get to work on SpongeBob from the from the Nickelodeon side. But there was a point, probably in about 1998 or so where he called me. And he said that his, his project was, was, it was kind of stalled, like nobody was, was really making a decision for it. And it would Cartoon Network be interested in it? And I was like, well, I don't think we could just do it, because I think they have the rights to it. But I was like, yeah, yes, you know, I'm sure we'd be interested send me the pitch. And he sent me a copy of the pitch, which I have with a letter, you know, basically saying, here it is, and, you know, we've, we've got a pilot, but you know, here's the pitch. And he said, you know, would you would you have any interest in it in this letter, and, and so what I started to realise was that he knew we couldn't just take it. But if he could walk in to someone's office at Nick and say, Cartoon Network says, they'll take this, it would light a fire under them. And then I was like, oh, okay, I see. I'm helping you out. And so, so I called him. And I said, Yes, go tell Nick, that Cartoon Network would be happy to produce SpongeBob. And so, about two days later, he called me back and he's like, 'Oh, they picked it up and thanks.' And, and so, so I did very little other than, you know, help him out. But he was able to go in and say that and I don't don't think anyone from Nick would ever admit that, you know, lit a fire under them. And of course, you know, they would have had the rights to it for probably several 100 years before we could have gotten it. But, you know, just his being able to go in and say that, you know, helped out. And I remember, there was this myth at Cartoon Network that I had passed on SpongeBob. And I was like, no, no, I have the pitch. I have the letter I, I did it without even asking anybody. I said, Yeah, sure, we'll do this. Because I knew Nick was never going to just be like, oh, yeah, okay, we're not going to do it so you take it to Cartoon Network. So, you know, it was it was just a little bit of masterful planning on Steve's part. But you know, the one thing that has come in handy is that now I have that very early pitch, and I can share it with my students. And they get a big kick out of seeing what from the pitch made it, which is most of it and, you know, a couple of random characters that never made it to the next steps. And, and so they get to see a little piece of animation history, because I like to show them in class, I show them a lot of the pitches from, you know, just to really make the point of how much things change. But the early pitch of SpongeBob didn't change that much. And Steve was a really funny guy. He was a really great director. And he, he would, he would find ways to put funny little things in places that most people wouldn't think of doing. So I think that was one of his special skills, was it just these little, like seemingly throwaway bits that are funny years later, so the students that I have now actually, they all grew up very much that SpongeBob era, so they're, you know, it's like, where someone my age would talk about Looney Tunes, they talked about SpongeBob, it was like their go-to after school. So that was my connection to SpongeBob. And, you know, a small one, but kind of amusing one that like I said, no one from Nick really knows about, but -

Michael Wakelam: 32:01

Well, also, by that point, when you move to Cartoon Network, you were very experienced in development, obviously, you you've done a lot of work at Nick. And so when I spoke with Andy, you know, he was talking about being a really young exec and the responsibilities that he had, and the things that he was doing at that age. But he added, you know, a caveat that he, although he was young, he was incredibly well trained by you to do what he was doing before you left.

Linda Simensky: 32:29

Oh, that's nice to hear. Yeah, well, I, I did hire Andy, I hired Eric Coleman, a couple other people at Nick, and they've all gone on to do great things. So they were, you know, they were all super smart people. And, you know, we were all figuring it out together. I think that that was, was something that I remember from that time is a lot of what we were doing a lot of the problems that we were solving were new for all of us. But, you know, the things that I learned about at Nick, I certainly shared with everyone. And you know, it was about how to how to be artist friendly, which was very important to me, I felt like, you know, that was an area where Nick could be different. You know, a lot of people struggled with other networks, or they struggled with other production companies. And I wanted Nick to be a place that artists wanted to go to, that they wanted to be part of. And I also wanted Nick to be known for being open minded and creative. And where, you know, like, I would always think about, you know, what, what would you want from your network executive, and I realised that what I really needed to do was model, model what we did on what, what, you know, editors in publishing did, which is that they really took care of their people. And, you know, they didn't step in front and say, you know, this is my project, but they really took care of their people. And they took the time to understand what the creator wanted to do. And then the job was to represent that to the network, and to represent the network, back to the Creator, and then to find a way to make everybody feel that they were being heard, and that the end result would be the best thing for the audience. And you had to kind of sell both sides on different things. But I thought a lot about that. And so I think if there's anything that I was able to pass on, to my colleagues at Nick, it was that, that sense of how to be a network executive in a creator driven universe. Which you know wasn't necessarily obvious, you know, and like, you don't say, Here's how to fix it and you don't say, you know, here's what I want. You say, you know, if you look at this some, you know, you were six, here's what you're gonna think, is there a way we can make this clear, you know, things like that, and you just, you really try to be a guide and, like, be helpful to both sides of the equation. And so, so I think that way of thinking was, was what I was able to pass on. But all the people that I've worked with, from Nick have gone on to, you know, have big jobs and do great things. And so I'm very proud of that, you know, of all of them. And, you know, and it's, it's good to see that mindset. In other places, you know, that, that idea of being open to the funniest possible solution to any creative problem, and the openness to, you know, to really listen to people and hear what they're trying to do, and to try to see that through.

Michael Wakelam: 36:01

Yeah, and I think it's, you know, it's interesting, because when you look at a lot of the, you know, the biggest successes in animation, it's, it is those creator driven projects, and it's when studios have decided to be creator driven, Pixar, you know, had the same success in being director driven. And going back to your earlier comment about not being able to find, you know, books on other aspects of animation, you know, because they weren't written and so, you know, finding out how to be a producer that relates to a creator, was not in a book, you know, had to be learned from somebody like you or on the job.

Linda Simensky: 36:42

Right, right. That's very true. And, of course, you know, what I was doing is, I was studying how the film board worked. And I got to know a lot of people at the film board, and, you know, how they, how they operated, how the producers took care of their people. And, you know, I combined that with the approach of editors, and I was very interested in Ursula Nordstrom, and she was a well known children's book editor back in, you know, olden times, and all of the, all of the authors really liked her, and she was very opinionated, and, you know, very, but she, she took really good care of her people. And, and I remember, sort of combining bits of that with, with, you know, and just, and also, you know, looking at what people were doing and trying to, you know, not do the things that I felt were, were wrong. And so the, you know, the end result was I became one of those executives who was, was really never going to be like eyeing a higher level job, you know, I never really wanted to run anything, I just sort of wanted to be in the trenches with the show creators and, you know, helping them along. And I came to understand that if I did my job really well, I would be completely invisible. And I thought, well, that is how it goes, you know, if that's if the, if that is how you get the best projects. That's what I will do. And so, so I took that approach, and, you know, that, that it wouldn't be about me, it would be about the creators, and I just fought for them. Sometimes, you know, kind of badly, I didn't always win. You know, sometimes I've fought things, and they didn't turn out well, you know, I had all of those different things. I've, I've had people, you know, fight to the death to include things I, you know, I fought to the death for them to include things and twenty years later, I've, I've heard them say things in podcasts or on panels, like, yeah, that was so stupid. I can't believe they let me do it. And I'm like, Ah, you know, why did I do that?

Michael Wakelam: 38:59

But you gotta try things, don't you? I think that's that you've being, being, having permission to fail. And being able to try things is just the way you will also create that, that greatness, you know, in other, you know, in other ways, if you don't have the times where you failed, you know, kind of maybe have the times where you succeed. Massively.

Linda Simensky: 39:20

Yeah, no, that's very true. And, and so, you know, it's, I had a boss at at PBS who said to me, you know, if you, you know, if you don't have a whole bunch of failures to point to you really not trying that hard. And I thought, Wow, you're so lucky. I have a boss who says that, because, you know, I can certainly supply you with a lot of failures, no problem there. But it was it was interesting moving to PBS, after Cartoon Network, and I think I shocked a lot of people when I did that. But what got me interested in preschool programming was pretty simple. It was I was now the mother of a two year old and it was oh, boy, these shows stink, That sounds so rude doesn't it but I, I really was not enjoying watching preschool programming. I you know, Sesame Street was fine. And my son was a little too young for Arthur at that point. And, you know, Clifford was cute. But Clifford, to me, it was like the epitome of of good preschool programming. And I thought, you know, my son has all these interests and where are the shows about, you know, all these things. He's interested in, you know, underwater, he's interested in space he's interested in, in Dr. Seuss, he's interested in so many different things. And he has a really good sense of humour. And he's really interested in science, and where are the shows for him. And when the job at PBS opened up, I was thinking a lot about preschool programming at that point. And I think that's the problem with being a programmer and a mother at the same time is that you start to be like, Okay, everyone out of my way, I need to make things for my kid! And, and that was my big inspiration at that point, was my my son. And so the job opened up, I applied for it, I didn't really think I would get it. But I had this theory that PBS needed to be a lot more educational, and also a lot more entertaining. And so I told them that, and they liked that. And they hired me. And I remember thinking, Well, you know, this is my big chance to see if I actually know what I'm doing. You know, they seem to be willing to give me a fair amount of freedom. And I've never really, I mean, I'd worked with Brown Johnson for a while on some preschool programming, at Nick Jr. But I'd never, you know, I'd never done this particular job. And could I do it? And I thought, sure, that seems like an interesting thing to do unexpected next step. And I took the job, and I moved to the Washington DC area, and started working at PBS. And that turned out to be a really great move, because PBS was great, they gave me a lot of freedom. They said, Yeah, you know, figure out how you want to do that. And I think they were losing a lot of viewers to cable at that point. And they, you know, they were, we're sort of battling with Nick Jr. and Disney Jr. and, you know, and they couldn't, there was Playhouse Disney at that point, but they couldn't quite figure out exactly what to do to, with, with all this competition. And so, so, you know, I came from a world where, you know, Nick and Disney were my competitors already. So, you know, I knew, I knew what that felt like. And so they let me do a lot at at PBS, you know, people kind of implied that PBS was, you know, not going to be particularly, you know, like, you know, encouraging for a creative approach to programming, people kept saying, Well, you know, they just kind of have their thing that they do. And, and that was not the case at all, they let me try all sorts of things. And I feel like, you know, even though it was I was working in the, the box of, you know, it's got to be for preschoolers, and it's got to be educational. I kind of liked having those parameters. And I got to try a lot of different things. And I think of the three jobs, this was where I had the most creative freedom, you know, they, they got excited when things were funny. And when things were were fun, and were interesting looking. And so I got a lot of encouragement, and I was able to do a lot of things worked with a lot of great production companies and creators. And, you know, when people asked me about my favourite shows from my PBS years, I can't even say, because I liked all of them. And, you know, some more than others.,

Michael Wakelam: 44:06

And you also, you know, you brought that focus, I guess not, not a focus, but an equal focus may be on comedy and education. And, and that's something, I mean, I believe in, you know, obviously, people will say, well, it's not, we're not doing heart surgery, when we're creating animation, but when you, when you are enriching kids lives, it, it is a really valuable part of their life, you know, and I think especially in our world today, if you can make a kid laugh, that's, that's almost as important as the educational side as well. You were able to do that at PBS and marry the two.

Linda Simensky: 44:45

Yeah, and that that was all kind of amazing to me that that, you know, they they were so open minded about what to do and so encouraging. And, and, and when I say they, I'm talking about some of the higher level executives but also people who did the programming at the stations, who, who weighed in on things. And there was a committee of programmers who were particularly interested in kids programming, and I got a lot of feedback from them. And they were all very encouraging. And we're all operating from the same idea that you know, it kids love, to your point, kids, kids like learning and kids like laughing, and they actually will learn better, if what they're watching is memorable and funny. And so really just combining all of those things, was was not difficult. And, you know, the creators that we worked with, they were excited to be, you know, to be told, repeatedly, can you make it funnier? And, you know, and can you make that design a little more unique looking. And so, you know, we brought in a lot of creators, I worked with people that I work with, in every job that I've done, like Craig Bartlett, Joe Murray, creators, I'm particularly close to whose work I love and whose sensibilities I love, and I was able to keep working with, you know, a lot of people I've worked with in other jobs, and, you know, with the executives I've worked with in other jobs, and so it was really a pretty amazing time, it was, it was really wonderful. You know, I was there 18 years PBS, so I got to try a lot of different things and work with a lot of different people. And so it was, you know, I think of, of my three jobs, the the PBS job may, in some ways capture my sensibility most closely, you know, I don't really have like a gross out sensibility or, you know, particularly crazy sensibility, mine's really more like, you know, wordplay, and, and, you know, like, some of the early episodes of Word Girl, Dinosaur Train, Let's Go Luna, that's, you know, those, those are all things that are, shows I'm particularly proud of, and there are a lot of shows, you know, Wild Kratts, and, and, you know, just a lot of different things I worked on, that I really felt close to and really enjoyed working on. So I felt, and, you know, I have, I have two kids, so I felt like, you know, I was working on on their behalf, and, you know, the behalf of all kids those ages. So, so that was a lot of-

Michael Wakelam: 47:26

-And on the flip side too, you know, what kids, you know, kids obviously enjoy comedy and, and education. But on the flip side of that creators who are funny are often really quite smart as well.

Linda Simensky: 47:37

Yes, yes, that's a great point. That's something that I have, I would say, you know, a lot of very smart people are also very funny. I think that, you know, people, people who are very smart have gotten a bad rap over the years. But I think that humour... and I think it's more, you know, people who are, are, you know, just curious are, you know, like, easily excited by all sorts of things, you know, great and funny. And, and so, so yes, it sort of bringing all of that together was was very fulfilling for me. And so when, when Duolingo came along, it was interesting, because they, they have an interesting mission, it's, it's to develop the best education in the world, and make it universally available. And, and also to reduce economic inequality by way of education. So at this point, I just spent 18 years doing that for kids. And suddenly, someone comes along and says, here's what we do. And you know, we're teaching language, internationally, to everybody, all sorts of languages to all sorts of people in, you know, at all different levels. And it's starting to make a difference. And we're, you know, making these, we're working on other apps as well for kids and adults. And we want to start doing content, both for the apps and for maybe other platforms. And you know, we're really leaning on animation, because we have this whole team of characters. And I knew about those characters, because my daughter, who is 16 was talking about them at dinner one night, and I thought she was talking about a show and she said, Oh, no, I'm talking about Duolingo. And I said, the language app, and she said, Yeah, and I said they have characters and she said, yeah, they have little, you know, short animation bits and you'd like it, you should check it out. And so I checked it out and it was not long after that, that I I got the call about the job. And I thought Duolingo was such an interesting company. But you know what really kind of sealed the deal for me was the one person I knew who worked there was, was saying to me, yeah, This is really amazing company, people are super nice. And you know, they're kind and generous and kind of quirky. And, and it all reminded me, as I was talking to people a little bit of the early days of Nick, which I enjoyed.

Michael Wakelam: 50:16

Like that discovery of a startup mode, you know, obviously Duolingo isn't a startup, but the animation department maybe is, you know.

Linda Simensky: 50:24

Yeah, yeah, well, they were just starting to do this. And, you know, it just reminded me a lot of those early days of Nick and the, the person I report to Tim Shea, actually worked with Herb and Fred at one point. And so, so I said, Well, that makes us corporate cousins. And, and so I felt like, you know, if he had worked with them, then I was going to be comfortable working with him. And that's definitely been the case. But it's that same mindset of, okay, you know, here's some things, let's make them funny, let's make them quirky, let's make them really feel unique. And, and so we're, you know, we're just at the beginning of figuring out the kinds of things that we can do, but we're working on a set of, of shorts, now that'll be in the app. And by shorts, they're really short, they're 90 seconds each, and they're all about the, the, you know, the way culture and language kind of interplay. And, and, you know, some of the shorts, focus a little more on culture, some focus on the language, like how, you know, for instance, across Latin America, they're all different words, for the same things. And, and, you know, little little things like that, that, you know, just learning a language might not teach you, but learning a little bit about the culture helps you learn the language a little differently. So we're working on those, and we're, you know, we're starting to think about, you know, all the characters that we have, and all the things that we can do with them. So it's, like I said, it's a lot like the early days of Nick and even the early days of Cartoon Network, where, you know, there was just a lot of Mike Lazzo would walk in every morning and say, I had an idea last night came to me in a dream. And we'd all listen. And, you know, some of those ideas ended up becoming shows. So So you just never know. But I think it's, it's interesting thinking about content, not for broadcast or not for a cable channel, but for an app. But I think that's where content is going. Now, I think you're gonna see a lot more, like, you know, unexpected places suddenly start to do content.

Michael Wakelam: 52:46

Yeah. I mean, I was thinking about, you know, there's obviously a merging of storytelling and story experiencing both in the way that the audience wants to consume and interact, but also the, the tools that we're creating the content with, you know, between games, and you know, feature films and TV animation, they're all converging to be the pretty much the same thing. And so, you know, I guess you've probably, you've probably got thoughts on how your characters at Duolingo could move across different, you know, different platforms, and even looking at web 3.0, and the metaverse and you know, how kids may be able to walk into a world some, at some stage and interact with a character in a different language.

Linda Simensky: 53:29

Right. Well, that is that is the dream is to get us to the point where and it's, you know, it's a dream, but it's really more like, you know, a dream that will come true, because people are figuring this out now, but, you know, imagine that you've, you've been working on on learning a language, and now you're going to talk to one of the characters who's going to talk to you, in their personality with their voice, and have a conversation with you. So I think we will get to that point relatively soon. And, you know, AI is moving pretty quickly. So, you know, I think, I think it's, it's, you know, it's not going to be too long before we're actually doing that. And I think that, you know, a lot of people really like Lilly, and I think a lot of people would like to, a lot of teen girls might like to have a conversation with Lilly about in another language about, you know, things. So I think things like that will be a lot of fun. And I like the idea of using animation for something that goes a little bit beyond just making the content, you know, now it's, it's, you know, it's learning and interacting and, and, you know, storytelling with the goal of getting people to the point where they can, you know, go to another country and and speak the language. I think I think it's it's exciting to be thinking about that. You know, every day we encounter, you know, some kind of issue to solve that, you know, it's something I never imagined I'd be thinking about, but I really enjoy it. You know, it's it, I got to a point in my career where I was thinking, Okay, what am I going to do before I, not that I'm retiring anytime soon, it's nothing like that. But, you know, you you make a decision of are you going to keep doing the same thing forever at different places? Or are you going to do something completely new?And one of the things that always kind of motivated me was this idea that, you know, there are lots of places that you can live, there are lots of different things you can do. And in the course of your lifetime, wouldn't you want to do, try a bunch of things? Wouldn't you want to do that? And I just, I guess, I'm just programmed that way to think, you know, there are lots of things to do. And I want to do lots of things. And you know, of course, all about animation. But, you know, I just I was feeling very curious. And, you know, I, for a long time, I felt like, well, whatever I do next, it hasn't been invented yet. And then when I encountered this job, I was thinking, okay, it's been invented this is it, this is the thing I want to do next. So, so yeah, so it's all about figuring out how to do, use recognisable things like animated shorts, to bring people into a subject that maybe they, you know, haven't thought much about, or are curious about. So, so it's interesting. And I think there's also a lot of room to think up more ideas and figure out how to do them. And, and, you know, you just think about your audience, what do they need? What do they wish they had? And, you know, they, I think the audience definitely would like to interact with the characters that we have.

Michael Wakelam: 56:59

Yeah. And in a world where things are more and more based on existing IP, wherever it is from, you know, you could probably see your characters in a feature film in theatres at some point.

Linda Simensky: 57:12

That would be great. Yeah. Yeah. So. So yeah, it's figuring out how to how to use them in the different apps to teach different subjects to different audiences, things like that. So. So yeah, it's all been really interesting. I'm, I've been there almost six months now.

Michael Wakelam: 57:32

Soyou're in that, yeah, in that startup phase, and I think you are really one of these kind of building type personalities, aren't you? Where you you love to be involved in that stage where you are creating something new and building something new.

Linda Simensky: 57:49

Yeah, that that is true. I, I have always been more of a builder. It took me a while to figure that out. But once I realised that it made me understand why I sometimes need to move on to the next thing. And it's very exciting. Moving on to the next thing. So that is correct.

Michael Wakelam: 58:11

Well, we look forward to everything that you are going to do with Duolingo. Sounds really exciting. And thank you for sharing all of your, your history and your story. I'm sure that it's going to benefit a lot of people who who listen to the podcast. Thank you.

Linda Simensky: 58:26

Well, thank you, Michael, this was a lot of fun. Thank you for the great questions.

Michael Wakelam: 58:30

Hey, thanks for tuning in. If you'd like to get in touch or to shoot us any feedback, then please email podcast at thecreatorssociety.org. You can find me on Instagram, Twitter, or LinkedIn. As mentioned at the top, please subscribe, like or share the podcast if you're enjoying it. I'm about to head to the US for the first time in a couple of years. So tune in over the next few weeks as we'll have our first in person episode recordings from LA and the Bay Area. I'd like to give a shout out to Rich Dickerson for the music, Mike Richer for the mix and our exec producer Eric Miller. Thanks again. See you next time.