36. Joel Crawford & Januel Mercado - Directors of DreamWorks Puss In Boots: The Last Wish

Puss In Boots: The Last Wish is fresh off a Golden Globes nomination and being widely praised - along with a 97% fresh rating on Rotten Tomatoes as I write this.

Join us as we jump into a nearly hour-long chat with Director Joel Crawford and Co-Director Januel Mercado.

These guys were so fun to chat with and they were very generous with their time in a week where they probably did a hundred interviews. What's cool is that Joel and Januel are really close friends, and got to work side by side on a movie which is really a fun ride. And you can tell they have loved making this - it comes through in every frame. It doesn't matter if you've seen the previous Puss In Boots or not, or any of the Shrek films, this one stands alone. It's fresh in style, darker in tone in places with a real depth. We get to chat about a lot of that, but somehow I felt like we were just scratching the surface. And we stayed pretty much out of spoiler territory I think so that you can listen to this before or after you see it - or both.

Show notes:

• If you want to check out Joel's student film, you can find it here. Well worth the watch.

Please remember to like, rate, and comment on your favorite podcasting platform and share the episode on social media.

If you have any comments or suggestions please get in touch. 

Host & Producer: Michael Wakelam

Executive Producer: Eric M. Miller

Music by: Rich Dickerson

Audio Engineering: Mike Rocha

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Transcript

Joel Crawford: 0:14

As the directors, we know what the story's about. We know why all the characters are in the movie and what the theme is, and we don't necessarily know exactly how we're going to get there. And there's something fun and exciting in that.

Michael Wakelam: 0:26

Welcome to the Creators Society Podcast. I'm Michael Wakelam. If you're new to the show, I basically have the privilege of chatting with very talented people from across the industry and sharing those conversations with you. And we've arrived at the last episode of the year. A real treat as I spoke with 'Puss in Boots: The Last Wish' director Joel Crawford and his co director Januel Mercado. The film opens today in the US, but not until February in the UK. So those on my side of the pond, we'll have to wait a little longer. These guys were so much fun to chat with. And they were really generous with their time in a week where they probably did 100 interviews. What's cool is that Joel and Januel are really close friends and have got to work side by side on a movie which is such a fun ride. It doesn't matter if you've seen the previous 'Puss in Boots' or not or any of the 'Shrek' films, this one stands alone. It's fresh in style, darker in tone in places, with a real depth. We get to chat about a lot of that but somehow I felt like we were just scraping the surface. And we stay pretty much out of spoiler territory, I think, so you can listen to this before or after you see it, or both. Before we jump in just a quick thanks to you all for listening this year. This is a side passion project that we started during the pandemic. And this year our listenership has grown so much and much of that is due to you sharing it. So please keep on doing that. And thanks so much to all of our guests this year for giving their time and giving back to the animation community. We're wrapping up the year but already have some really great guests lined up for'23. So we'll be back in just a few weeks. Special thanks to my volunteer team here, as we've put out 24 episodes this year. All right, let's jump into that

chat with 'Puss in Boots: 2:03

The last Wish' director Joel Crawford and co director Januel Mercado. Welcome, Joel, Januel. Thanks, thanks so much for joining me today.

Joel Crawford: 2:13

Thanks for having us.

Januel Mercado: 2:14

Yeah, thank you.

Michael Wakelam: 2:15

I know you've been incredibly busy with the premiere and the press and lead up. I mean, I've seen your Instagram Joel, you've been very, very busy. So thanks so much for your time today it's really, really great.

Joel Crawford: 2:27

Oh, you know we work on these movies for so long. There's so much that goes into them. And it's just it's so fun to talk about them. And so we're excited to be here and share this time.

Michael Wakelam: 2:38

Great. So I'm super excited to chat about this film. But also to dig into your careers a little because I guess, you know, I have to say that I've been... I've been surprised a couple of times by DreamWorks in the past couple of years. And both of those surprises were sequels to 'The Croods' and 'Puss in Boots' and both directed by you Joel.

Joel Crawford: 3:01

Oh, I hope they were good surprises!

Michael Wakelam: 3:06

Yeah, I think you know, both fantastically entertaining, you know, but also really, I guess, funny with a lot of heart and a lot of depth in ways I didn't expect.

Januel Mercado: 3:18

We always love hearing that. Right? Yeah. patients. Well, yeah.

Joel Crawford: 3:22

And I think for myself, I've always loved comedies. I grew up, you know, watching in my household my parents, you know, loved Chevy Chase comedies.

Januel Mercado: 3:38

'National Lampoons'.

Joel Crawford: 3:38

Steve Martin. Yeah, so and so it was kind of this thing where it's like, I grew up in like, a comedy household. And for me, that was, I remember, like, sitting with my family, like us being able to laugh together. And there's something just kind of special about comedy because it's a disarming way to tell to present a message. And so, I mean, I think with '[The] Croods' with'Puss in Boots' like it's just been fun to just kind of approach it as a comedy and then see tonally when when you need to go to some different space but that's definitely I think the first priority.

Januel Mercado: 4:18

And on that note, too, like I grew up watching many sitcoms and with incredible ensemble casts right like especially 'The Simpsons' really shaped me and and then like '[The] Fresh Prince of Bel Air', 'Friends', 'Arrested Development' in the college years and we're big fans of we studied, you know, the rest of Latin to go along with the comedy there's there's also a lot of heart and sweetness within the those dynamics and the relationships of those characters. So we always lean into having that kind of lead the way right yeah, because character is story and story is character.

Michael Wakelam: 4:57

Yeah, and we don't, you know, even people who are really funny don't laugh all the time.

Joel Crawford: 5:01

Yeah it's true. Can't have one without the other.

Audio Clip from 'Puss in Boots: The Last Wish': 5:05

I am Puss in Boots! Holy frijoles! Hey giant! You want to see something cool? Gracias! The legend will never die-

Michael Wakelam: 5:25

'Puss in Boots', guys, come on, I mean, I know I saw one reviewer referred to it as the 'Logan' of the animation world.

Januel Mercado: 5:34

That was a fun surprise. Yeah, you're like, wow, it's yeah, it was funny. Like, just to react to that. Oh, I remember when I first saw it, I was like, I was surprised because with such high praise, where I was like, oh, at first, my initial reaction was like, oh, that's, I felt like it was a reach to give us such grace. That's uncalled for.

Joel Crawford: 5:51

I thought, Wow, he really found a good comparison with just like an ageing kind of cowboy. It's like, yeah, actually, it was very observant. Yeah, I've already thought about it's like, wow, that'sa avery beautiful comparison

Michael Wakelam: 6:03

Yeah, I mean, I think I'm gonna say in the first act, especially with the when the we had the scene with the wolf character, that I, I felt like 'John Wick' vibes.

Joel Crawford: 6:14

Yeah. You know. I mean, so Daniel and I, we have this kind of weird, like interest in movies like where, so we're very much into, like Sergio Leone spaghetti western kind of thing. Which goes hand in hand with Akira Kurosawa movies, Samurai epics. Yeah. And so like, on one hand, we were like, we love those and we'll reference a lot of specific shots and things as like homages. And then on the other hand, we're like, we love like'Stepbrothers' and 'MacGruber' and '21 Jump Street'.

Januel Mercado: 6:54

That's our Bible, right? So a Samurai and'21 Jump Street'.

Joel Crawford: 7:00

And so, like, you have this kind of broad kind of tapestry of tone, and even just execution where you know, like, how are you going to shoot these things? The wolf bar scene was a, was an interesting sequence to find, because, like I had mentioned, we set out to tell a comedy/action/adventure.

Michael Wakelam: 7:24

Yep.

Joel Crawford: 7:25

And I mean, the basis of the movie being about Puss in Boots has burned through eight of his nine lives. I mean, that in itself, we got excited. Like, that's, it's such a ridiculously lovely fairy tale premise. Like cats have nine lives. But then, like, the stakes underneath that is like, it's about mortality. It's- this guy's on his last life, and he's realising it. And what we needed to do was, not only take Puss but the audience on a tonal shift from this is funny, this is fun, we're having so much great, you know, it's great to see Puss in Boots the swashbuckling is back and then, and then you feel as an audience, like, oh, there's- there's stakes in this. And it was really kind of a journey in editorial of reworking that scene, which it just kept getting more and more surprising, I think.

Michael Wakelam: 8:23

Yeah, I think I had a note, like, very similar just said, like, as soon as you get to that scene, you'll- you're bellowing into the audience, his is not the movie you expect. You know, I think that's what I felt. Alright, before we get into that, I do want to, as I said, we normally do a full rewind of your entire career. We're a little short on time today, so we're not going to have a chance to do that. But I do want to briefly hit rewind to get like the five minute backstory version of both of your careers. So, so if you could start with you know, both of your- what was your I guess, what was a creative spark for you that pointed you towards a career in animation?

Januel Mercado: 9:02

Well I, like growing up by- I always loved like cartoons comic books, right? Like Batman, Superman, X Men, Marvel, DC. And then Looney Tunes was a staple, Saturday morning cartoons. So that just had me like drawing for like my entire life since I was a kid. And I didn't know there was like a real career in that I think it got to a point where I was even like drawing from my high school and still was very active in my life and my hobby and my passion. And I think when I was getting close to going to college, I was like, well, I guess I'll be a graphic designer or illustrator. But then I found that like at, San Jose State that they had an animation illustration programme and I was like, woah I can make movies, cartoons, TV? So that's how I fell into that and then I initially wanted to be an animator but then found that I didn't have the patience or skill for it. You know, I just like drawingthe keys like don't want to in between don't want to fill it in, don't want to clean up. My paper was always, my animation paper is always like the most wrinkly-est. And I always looked at like fellow peers and they're like, how do you keep your your paper so clean when you're rolling. Mine's like crumpled tissue paper, I just- But I didn't know I wanted to do story. Story is my thing where I ended up. I didn't do it, I didn't focus on that until my last year of college, so it matched up perfectly where I devoted to that that my last year and then DreamWorks had their story initiative programme that was specifically targeting recent graduates. So the opportunity preparation, timing paid off and that's how I got into the industry. And I started off as a trainee. And Joel was actually one of the first friends I met met here when I started in 2008. And then we've been like best friends ever since.

Joel Crawford: 10:49

We worked together on 'Kung Fu Panda 2'?

Januel Mercado: 10:51

That was my first movies then I got put on training and then we were office mates.

Joel Crawford: 10:57

Yeah, and been inseparable sincelike Dumb and Dumber.

Michael Wakelam: 11:04

And you continue to work like, so you must have had, I'm guessing was a quite influential professor at San Jose State, David Chai, is that right? Because you continued to with him?

Januel Mercado: 11:14

Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. He's one of my, my closest mentors and really shaped me as an artist.

Joel Crawford: 11:23

Yeah, for myself. Just kind of similar as as a kid. I loved drawing. And just discovered like, I love drawing, but I also loved like, as soon as we had any kind of opportunity to get a video camera, like I loved making, like, like SNL kind of quality, like, like our like, like, aspirations of qua- of quality, just trying to make like spoofs and just, I love like just telling stories that way. And then, at a young age, my parents found like, oh, like they both didn't have careers and good jobs they loved and so they were like, whatever you want to do, just go for it. Like, don't be lazy, go for it. And so my mom especially was always looking for opportunities to push. And so she found in high school, I went to- had this opportunity to go to the CalArts Summer School of the Arts, which was like a couple of week kind of an animation programme during the summer. And that just like lit up, like for me, I'm like, oh, this is what I want to do. And so from then on, like, I was just trying to get into CalArts. As I graduated high school, I got rejected. And then a couple years later, applied again and got in and went there for three years. And one of the coolest things about art school, I mean, there was a lot of influential teachers, but really the peers that you're surrounded with are, like, you kind of motivate each other, inspire each other. And what's so cool is to be now like working in the industry, like so many of the people I went to school with, like, like on this movie, Nate Wragg, the production designer, he and I were at CalArts together. Heidi Jo Gilbert, the head of story we we're at CalArts together. Yiqun Chen (unintelligible), the- one of the character designers, we were there together. So basically, yeah, all these people where you go, like, it's so amazing we could work together, you know.

Michael Wakelam: 13:36

Yeah.

Joel Crawford: 13:36

And so I was there at CalArts for three years. And then in my third year, my short film was seen at the- that producers show where they get people in the industry to watch your film and the creators of 'Avatar: The Last Airbender" came up to me afterwards, and were like, hey, we loved your film, do you, would you want to storyboard? And I was like, it's funny because I was in this, this mental state of like, like, just flattered, and like, amazed, but at the same time, like, oh, I have another year of school. And then I was like, I was thinking, why? Just got to finish school to try and get that same job when I get out of school. Because I knew I wanted the storyboard. And so yeah, so I left CalArts on my third year, and went and started at

Nickelodeon on 'Avatar: 14:28

The Last Airbender'. I was just there for a short amount of time. I worked on their, the super cute TV shorts, where they're like, the characters are shrunk and extra cute. Yeah, exactly. Because when I came in, it was like, on a hiatus between the two seasons. And it's funny cuz I always loved action.

Joel Crawford: 14:48

And then I was like, oh, I'm drawing these cute

Januel Mercado: 14:48

Yeah. characters. I don't know if I'm good at that. But it was, it was a great experience. And then, at the same time, I had the opportunity to come over here to DreamWorks. To do the training programme for story as well. And so I think I started just a couple years ahead of you. And then my first movie was 'Kung Fu Panda'. And speaking of like, comedy and heart, that was like, for me, I was like, oh, I'm gonna storyboard cool action stuff. And they gave me I remember the scene, Po under the peach tree, where Oogway has come to, comes up to him and Po's like, he's upset, and he's just shoving peaches in his mouth. And, and then Oogway gives him this great advice about like, stop worrying about tomorrow and yesterday, like, enjoy this moment today. And it was like this, this really like well written, heartfelt scene that I storyboarded and, and it was so awesome to have this thing. It was kind of in the shell of comedy, but there's so much hard underneath it. And I was like, that's when I found like, I think I like this. This is where my interest lie. Yeah. That quote you're talking about? Yesterday is history. Tomorrow is a mystery. But today is a gift. That's why they call it the present. That's when I met you around'Shrek 4'.

Joel Crawford: 16:05

Yeah. 'Rise of The Guardians'. Yeah. And it was so beautifully written. And, and Just like, it's so fun, especially here at DreamWorks,

Januel Mercado: 16:07

'Trolls'. to build a storyboard that and then bring that to the screen. And it was like, that was the first thing that I, that made it into a movie that I storyboarded, and it was just so fortunate. And so then, you know, storyboarded on multiple movies after that, working on'Shrek Forever After' after that one. where, I mean, it's been like over 17 years that I've been here but because each movie is its own tone. And you get these- I was just such a great opportunity to work with different directors like Peter Ramsay on 'Rise of the Guardians' like it was like just the- or like Mike Mitchell on'Shrek Forever After' and'Trolls'. And so it's just been a fun ride of absorbing, learning, and then I had the opportunity to be head of story on 'Trolls', and then direct the'Trolls" holiday special. And then on to 'Croods: A New Age'. And here we are on 'Puss in Boots: The Last Wish'. I'm very proud that because of you- he also brought me on to 'Trolls', I really wanted to work on that first movie or that franchise and work with Mike for the first time and, and I I'm proud to say that, that to be a part of that integral team that, that set up that franchise and its tone in its voice. It was an awesome experience.

Joel Crawford: 17:30

You were the you were the wild card when you were brought on. I was like trust me guys, this guy's hilarious. You did not disappoint.

Januel Mercado: 17:39

He got me a gig, because I was working on I might have been working on 'Penguins of Madagascar', but the movie and I wanted to really work on'Trolls' and he was like, okay, I think I got you like it sounded like an audition right? I think I got you in! Here we got your first sequence to help out, like this is really like the time for you to like, show your stuff man like unleashed. But I just wanted Michael, look I just wanted to share one more anecdote that was kind of a trippy connection between us when he was talking about like that that student film he was making, I think it was Watambi.

Michael Wakelam: 18:13

Was that Watambi? Yeah, I watched that.

Januel Mercado: 18:15

Yeah, it's beautiful.

Michael Wakelam: 18:17

It is.

Januel Mercado: 18:18

Very inspiring. But Michael I was in, I remember I was in Dave Chai's class, when me and my friends were watching the films from CalArts. And, and my our friend is Andrew is one of them. He's actually an animator at DreamWorks and worked on 'Puss in Boots'. But I remember we were watching these CalArts films and watching Joel's film and it made us so depressed because the talent at Cal Arts was so good that we were like, man we suck. Like we could barely finish our own student film and there's this one guy that like did like this epic short story that had you crying and laughing and beautifully drafted. I was like, Oh, man should we should quit? Like this is what we're up against. So amazing to flash forward and be working with you and like you just crushed my dreams.

Michael Wakelam: 19:11

I could see so much of your sensibilities in that short Joel. That was a, you know, was a really interesting short, it was not something that you know, it was not more of the same I guess when it when it came to shorts. It was it was interesting.

Joel Crawford: 19:24

Oh, thank you. Yeah, it was one of those things to where you go like student film, you're like, you're a little too ambitious. Imma tell this big ol' story in three minutes.

Januel Mercado: 19:34

That's the thing. That's the amazing thing that I want to keep striving for, which is like something that feels small and intimate. But it's actually, because the emotion is so resonant and engaging that it feels big and epic, but it's actually a small sweet personal, intimate story you know.

Joel Crawford: 19:53

Yeah. That's the challenge. Yeah.

Michael Wakelam: 19:55

Yeah and I think I mean, let's get to',Puss in Boots' but you obviously, yeah you worked together on 'The Croods'. And I think you came onto that project late as well didn't you Joel?

Joel Crawford: On 'The Croods: 20:04

A New Age'?

Joel Crawford: 20:06

So that one it was interesting. It was- it had

Michael Wakelam: 20:06

Yeah. been a project, they started and then stopped. And then Universal acquired DreamWorks in there. So it was a project that it was not going when we came on to it. But it was something the studio said, yeah, we love these characters, we want to tell their next story. And so we had a lot of fun coming on to that. And one of the nice things when we approached that project, you know, I've been such a fan of Chris Sanders for a really long time. And even Chris Sanders, and Kirk DeMicco had left the studio, and were working on their own projects. And when this started up, Chris was so nice. He came in and met with us, worked over the script with us talked about the characters. Kind of gave me a really nice handoff to continue these characters. And so it was just so great to like, kind of have that confidence first time directing a feature and, and to have the creator kind of go run with it, you know. And it almost- it also like empowered me to go like, I can't be a Chris Sanders. Like, so just let me just, I'll just -

Januel Mercado: 21:19

-be Joel Crawford.

Joel Crawford: 21:20

Whatever that means! But yeah, just like I think, you know, in tonally with comedy, we went to some weird

places i 'Croods: 21:26

A New Age'. Yeah it was really fun.

Michael Wakelam: 21:30

It was so fun that film. You know, my kids are a bit older now. So, you know, I said, let's, you know, they watched they love 'The Croods' when they were younger, and I'm like, let's watch 'The Croods' sequel. And they're, like,(grumbling), I said, you're watching 'The Croods' sequel. And, and they- everyone laughed so much. It was so fun. It was a real triumph I thought.

Januel Mercado: 21:52

That means a lot to us Michael, because some people don't feel that way. So we're always happy that someone(unintelligible) and appreciates our stupidity.

Michael Wakelam: 22:06

All right. So by this point in your career, you guys are pretty close friends, and you launch into'Puss in Boots' together. You know, it'd be interesting to hear how you work together. I mean, this is a big film, a lot going on. Interesting art styles. You know, how did you work together as director and co director on this?

Januel Mercado: 22:30

Yeah, Generally, I'll just speak I love- I'm very, very happy to describe our style of, of directing, which is relying on the people around you. And trusting that they- because we love the collaboration so much, because we're so aware of like, you got so many talented artists, and just people and great human beings around you. And it always felt like a no brainer. Like, why wouldn't you, you know, rely on them? Why wouldn't you use your team? And we always felt that like, where, you know, maybe we do have like, a vision we want to execute, but we'll get like the big ideas, like here's what we're thinking, here's what we're inspired by, and then we'll give it to everybody. Like how would you like to interpret this? Because we're we are making this movie together. Yeah. And that's what makes us powerful, I think.

Joel Crawford: 23:24

Yeah, I think the- kind of going along with that, like the- one of the things I discovered in when I was at art school was when my first storyboard class I remember I pitched storyboards, like, we board the, like these little test scenes, and we and we had to stand up and pitch them. And I'm like, I'm not good at pitching. I get nervous. I don't know how to like, tell this story. My drawings are there. But, and so I asked the teacher I'm like as like, like, do you have advice for me to get better at the pitching part? And she goes, during summer, go down to Groundlings and take improv classes. And I went and I fell in love with improv. And it's funny because I came back the next semester. And the teachers like, oh, you actually went I tell everybody that but no one actually goes. But, but I feel like improv is such like you're saying Januel, such a way of how we work, where as the directors we know, we know what the story's about. We know why all the characters are in the movie and what the theme is, and but we don't necessarily know exactly how we're gonna get there. And there's something fun and exciting in that. Just like improv when the scene's about to start there's this nervousness of like, what the hell's gonna happen?

Januel Mercado: 24:41

Yeah.

Joel Crawford: 24:42

And but this'yes, and...' it just builds and that's, it's, it's cool because like, I think as a director, it can easily get stale where if everything matches your vision, then you're kind of- you have a blind spot because it's exactly what you were seeing, but you're not seeing it with any perspective. And when you're constantly going, here's the point of this, whether it's for the script, whether it's with the actors, whether it's with the animators, if they deliver on the point of that, but it comes from an expression from them, it gets better. And so I think we like to do that where just it's, we're, we're kind of open and to the chaos of creating this thing.

Januel Mercado: 25:25

And we're both big people persons as well and people pleasers, if that occurs, but I rely on it as a strength because the energy that you put out and receive with the crew goes a long way, especially in the most challenging times, if everyone, for the most part is having a good time, or even if it's a hard time, but you believe in the idea and you trust each other, and you know, you're it's a tough road ahead, but you're travelling together. Like I'll die on that hill because that, that is everything to me. That's like the heart of this experience. And storytelling making again, making movies are hard.

Michael Wakelam: 26:04

Yeah, yeah, no that's true. That's great.

Joel Crawford: 26:04

Yeah movies are hard, they take a long time. And like, you've got to, yeah, it's like this little time capsule of your life. You're like, you don't want it to just be a great movie, but a great experience also making it.

Michael Wakelam: 26:15

Yeah, yeah, that's true. That's great.

Januel Mercado: 26:17

And hopefully, I think, I think you might feel it in the movie, you know, like the love that's put in?

Joel Crawford: 26:21

Yeah, yeah, you do. I mean, you couldn't make something like that and not have a good time doing it I don't think, I wo uld hope.

Januel Mercado: 26:31

Yeah no, you're right.

Joel Crawford: 26:33

Yeah.

Michael Wakelam: 26:33

I'm curious about the story process. So I was at the Annecy presentation earlier this year.

Januel Mercado: 26:40

Oh cool! That was the first look.

Michael Wakelam: 26:42

Yeah, it was really interesting. So that's when I started to get excited about the film. And you talked about the story in the editing process a little. Can you touch on that? Because you worked with James Ryan, who you also had on'The Croods'? Yeah.

Joel Crawford: 26:56

Yeah. And that's the- and yeah. So in Annecy, earlier this year, we showed 30 minutes of the movie and then broke down the wolf bar fight. And it was really important to us that it wasn't just Januel and I up on that stage but that we had, we had the producer Mark Swift with us, we had the head of story Heidi Jo Gilbert with us. We had James Ryan, the editor ace with us.

Januel Mercado: 27:23

Production designer-

Joel Crawford: 27:23

-and the production designer Nate Wragg,

Michael Wakelam: 27:24

Yeah, that's really interesting. Yeah, I with us as well, because it's, it is so collaborative. And the way you find these, these story pieces is everybody's attacking it from different angles, but with the same goal in mind. And with Jim Ryan like, I mean, you find- you find your team and you go we have a shorthand and that doesn't mean we always see things the same. Like, there's plenty of like us like a family arguing with each other. You know, what- arguing story points and stuff, but you love that, that you go, everybody's challenging it but we all trust and believe in each other. And so like Jim Ryan, he goes above and beyond like what an editor in my opinion does. Where Jim is, he's actually a great writer, he comes up with so many funny lines that he'll be like, what did the character said this here, and our writer who is in the room with us in editorial, Paul Fisher, we've worked with him, we've worked with him on two movies as well. And so we have this, everybody's comfortable in a way, stepping on each other's toes, like, it's okay to go out of your lane a little bit because we feed off of that. And so Jim, one of the things I mean, Jim comes up with ideas and has this way of like, he'll go, let me try this. And like, for example, in the wolf bar fight, we're trying to get to the point where Puss was taking the stakes seriously so that the audience would believe the stakes. And Jim was like, what if his live splash before his eyes, and he goes, let me- let me just try something and he quickly grabbed stills and things from the first 'Puss in Boots', and he cut it together. And and you know, as you saw, Michael, it's like, it's rough and messy. But it represents the idea. And we were sold. And we're like, that's brilliant. And so I love that everybody's attacking the story, not just the head of story, not just the directors. know, there was talk of like napkins and posted notes kind of being put into the edit, you know, like.

Januel Mercado: 29:33

That's how the sausage gets made.

Joel Crawford: 29:37

Januel, it's like, Jan-, he's Januel's an amazing artists. I'm always like, can you draw this one. But he and I like, it's that kind of shorthand where not just in our relationship with each other of how we communicate with words, but also visually like, sometimes we'll just be in editorial and the quickest way is paper for some reason from the brain to representing a visual. And, which isn't, I think production gets annoyed with because we're like, we have to go scan these post-its you've drawn, and you don't even draw on the right ratio. And so, but but, and at one point, we actually both like I think we, we came in with iPads, brand new iPads. And they proceeded to just put post-its on them and draw them as a hard surface.

Januel Mercado: 30:24

What I loved about our process of drawing on paper, it's like, we'll- maybe we'll be attacking the same idea of the shot, and then we'll, we'll trade and riff and a lot of the times too, we'd be just, shared drawing, like over the other person would be like may I and just be like, draw this, and keep going over his drawing. I love that process of, we're literally drawing over each other's drawings.

Joel Crawford: 30:48

Yeah. Yeah.

Michael Wakelam: 30:51

That's fun. That sounds like a fun process. I want to talk about action a little bit, because I remember talking, I spoke to Pierre about'The Bad Guys'. And it was unique, how he was approaching some of that action with, you know, 2d on 3d and, but the choreography in your film was really interesting. And so, you know, how did you approach that from an action and story point of view?

Joel Crawford: 31:13

I mean, I think first to talk about- there,' were mixing animation styles in this. And, you know, we're such fans of so much animation like anime and traditional kind of the nine old men and like, all these things, we wanted to not just do something because it was cool or different, but make sure there was a story philosophy behind it. And like I was mentioning, you know, the premise of this is a cat on his ninth life, it's this fairy tale kind of thing. And really wanting to go in, you have this larger than life kind of hero who feels invincible and how can we make the action feel fantastical and not grounded, but, but like a fairy tale, like you know, and so using stepped animation, where we're able to push poses, let Puss float in the air, break physics, do all the things that that CG hates, because the computer wants to make everything smooth, and grounded and real. And so in that way, like, we're like, when we have these moments, where Puss is- he has this kind of immortal point of view of like, I'm gonna live forever, like that. We're using this everything feels hyper fantastical. And then using traditional kind of CG, everything going back to, you know, being on ones everything's smooth. When in moments of Puss' vulnerability, in moments of appreciation. It's like, so you feel that it switch up throughout the movie, but-

Michael Wakelam: 32:52

Yeah, and that really works, you know, that. I was going to ask you about frame rate. I mean, that was that was so interesting, when you use that device to help tell the story. It was, you know, I guess it wouldn't have taken most people out of the movie, it took me out a little bit just because I'm looking at the technique. And, you know, it was so it was so interesting. But yeah, you're right, I just kind of emphasises those different parts of the story and drove things forward in different ways.

Joel Crawford: 33:19

Yeah, and so I think that was like the initial kind of kickoff with like, okay, here's when we'll use this stepped animation. But then I think in terms of like the action there's like, I think some of our like our influences like Matthew Vaughn action is just, just oh it's so fun right.

Januel Mercado: 33:38

and it can edit camera moves. Yeah, we were always asking for Chris and his

Joel Crawford: 33:40

Yeah. And then there's this- and actually wanted to pair... so our head of layout Chris(unintelligible) really kind of he was amazing to work with too. We had this conversation about like making the camera do these kind of like these oners, these long one shots that are just like nice and smooth and when you pair that with stepped animation, you're like everything's turned up and fantastical but you feel like you're safe and you're just watching the superhero just kick ass and... and then being able to like contrast that say in like the wolf bar scene where you get to these really quick cuts where everything is just like you're trying to keep up with it visually. And it's shocking the same way it's shocking for Puss, you're not expecting it. And playing with that contrast was just so fun throughout the movie. Camera wise

Michael Wakelam: 34:34

Yeah, definitely. The cinematography team to like really push the lens wider like, wider wider! Because like along with that anime influence and just those pushed poses and the pushed framing and composition. was outstanding like it really, it made such a difference noticeably in the story. And you know, that was one of my points here that you know, it was really again the animation styles but then the cinematography was really- on some on some shots it was just driving that story just with the cameras so much you know.

Januel Mercado: 35:11

No it's great to hear you notice and appreciate all that again Michael because like again the intention right and that we put into for it to be noticed. It's the reward you know.

Joel Crawford: 35:22

We had to make sure it felt like you're not only just- not distracted by cool action, I mean I love action movies--that's fine but you're in the middle of the

Januel Mercado: 35:31

-motion action so you're with Puss in Boots as like, when in the in the middle of the movie when there's this kind of meeting of all the characters and everybody's trying to kill Puss in Boots, and you know he's on his last life, it's like a it's like a Jackie Chan type thing where it's fun to see Puss being afraid at this moment and even like just the the absurdity of the situation but this, the camera is saying stakes. But you know, you've got people who are getting shot by unicorn horns blowing upt into confetti. And you go like, we had so much fun with that and I go back to our sensibilities taking absurdity and reality and butting hem up against each other.

Michael Wakelam: 36:17

Yeah, yeah, I mean the comedy in this was so fun. The whole dark forest, the wish map, and all of those different lands. You know, that I guess the layers of gags that were teamed with the- teamed with you know, they pertain to characters and they had depth in the gag that was story driven was just so fun. I have to I have to ask, you know, and this is a tiny spoiler territory, but not so much plot wise, but have to ask about the Jimmy Stewart version of Jiminy Cricket, which was- which is genius.

Joel Crawford: 36:55

Yeah, you know-

Januel Mercado: 36:56

the writer Paul Fisher.

Joel Crawford: 36:57

Yeah, Paul Fisher, the writer came up with with him. And I remember how we kind of arrived there. You know we, you've have all these characters who- we were making sure you know, it's tricky when you have an assemble cast, where there's so many characters, there's so many storylines going that you don't want to feel like just chaos. You want everything to be on story thematically, so every- even though you're cutting to different journeys, they're all the same journey, which is essentially you have all these characters chasing after this wish, this one thing they think will fix their lives. When in reality, you know, is it better to appreciate what you have and maybe you don't need magic to fix your life? That kind of being the undercurrent for all these characters. Jack Horner, I mean, John Mulaney is so funny and and was just so amazing to work with. But it felt like with Jack Horner scenes you wanted- he's so funny being bad you wanted somebody pure to contrast, you want the devil an angel. And we were trying to figure out like, man, I wish Purrito could could be with Jack Horner because- but we can't sacrifice the emotional time with Puss and Kitty and the dog or even him with a bear.

Januel Mercado: 38:17

So we wanted that contrast.

Joel Crawford: 38:18

And so that's when Paul Fisher was like, you know, what about the cricket from Pinnochio. And I say that because legal will probably bleep any time we say Jiminy Cricket. But- and so his name is ethical bug. It was one of those things of like an aha moment.

Januel Mercado: 38:37

Yeah.

Joel Crawford: 38:37

But and then do you remember how we got to Jimmy Stewart as the reference point?

Januel Mercado: 38:41

I think maybe we were just playing around with- we found the pun connection of Jiminy Cricket, Jimmy Stewart, so we are internally calling him Oh, Jiminy Stewart.

Joel Crawford: 38:53

Another thing that kind of lined up personality wise was the-

Januel Mercado: 38:57

-so earnest.

Joel Crawford: 38:58

Yeah, like the Jimmy Stewart, you know-

Januel Mercado: 39:00

-Frank Capra type?

Joel Crawford: 39:01

Yeah. The Frank Capra movies the Capra-corn right?

Januel Mercado: 39:06

Yes.

Joel Crawford: 39:06

Corny, like like squeaky clean look at life. It was like oh-

Januel Mercado: 39:11

-wholesome values.

Joel Crawford: 39:12

That's That's the voice and-

Michael Wakelam: 39:15

-and that's what made it funny. That's what it made it that's what you expected from you know, his character and...

Joel Crawford: 39:22

And actually, interesting little note on on his voice. Kevin McCann, who is the story edit supervisor on the production side was actually he was in the room with us and he was doing a great Jimmy Stewart voice so we're like well for the temporary voice the scratch will we'll put that in the movie and and it just killed-

Januel Mercado: 39:46

-everybody was screaming. Yeah-

Michael Wakelam: 39:47

-was so surprised by it. And so Mark swift The producer was like it's working so well. Let's not mess with it. And so Kevin's voice is Ethical Bug. Oh that's great. And you guys found your way in there voice

Januel Mercado: 40:04

Oh yeah a couple of red shirts as they get wise as well. killed.

Joel Crawford: 40:11

Yeah the extras. You know we're, I mean so much of how we work because of this like improv kind of style is we both do a lot of voice acting for- to just get scenes up and working. And so we would try- we like Januel does a great Puss in Boots. So he would always do the temporary for when we're waiting for Antonio.

Januel Mercado: 40:34

Joel does Perrito.

Joel Crawford: 40:35

Oh yeah, my high register matches with Harvey so we, we would do a lot of acting. And there's certain times where you're just moving and you're like, like, is that working? As is? And is that just a background character? Then we leave us in there. And animated it just makes things go smoother.

Januel Mercado: 40:56

It's funny the opening song the "never been touched" is me and Joel singing that. And actually we- the composer actually got some talented like musicians and singers. And we were actually- you know, don't like the sound of our voices so it's like yeah, like replace it with the professional singers. But then everyone, our whole crew, we lost this battle, were saying like, it's not as funny when it's people who sing well. They left our crappy singing in.

Michael Wakelam: 41:24

Alright, so you had I guess- this is a film that follows on from a film 11 years ago, which was spun out from'Shrek', which its film, last film was a year or two before that. And yet you managed to maintain some elements of that'Shrek' world without really this film feeling anything like those films at all, I felt. Was there any need or desire to stay connected to that franchise?

Joel Crawford: 41:52

I think it was it was a balance because you know, I mean, like Januel was saying, we love the 'Shrek' world. They love those characters. They're so fun. But this is Puss in Boot's next chapter. It has been so long since the last instalment that we were very cognizant of not doing anything that distracts from the story. In a way, there's, there's people who are returning to Puss in Boots, who grew up with him who love it. And then there's people who maybe have never seen'Puss in Boots' or 'Shrek'. And we wanted to make sure this was kind of a standalone, where it's an introduction, whether you love it, or you're new to it, that we're kind of forming a world for you and saying, be a part of this. And hopefully you enjoy this so much it causes you to go reference some of the reference points, but it is I mean, we're taking Puss' like story seriously and, and making sure we dedicate the time to

Januel Mercado: 42:54

And on the other side of that we, we love though him. acknowledging like that Puss is a part of the greater 'Shrek' universe because it's such a fantastical, appealing world. I always love just world building. We're big fans of like, like MCU and Miyazaki as well. But just like to feel that like you could focus on like a main character, but you know, there's a greater world around him that exists with other stories and histories. It makes it more real I think.

Joel Crawford: 43:22

Yeah. And it was fun to put like, a few cameos of fairytale characters in there.

Januel Mercado: 43:28

Tastefully, right? Like yeah.

Michael Wakelam: 43:30

And I like what you said before Januel about taking you know, something that is a big world and making a smaller personal story, you know, making it feel personal even though it's a really big, you know, a big space that you're playing in. Was there any- were there any gags that you know, you had to cut that you would you know, you would have love to get in?

Januel Mercado: 43:52

Yeah, there's probably two hours on the floor.

Joel Crawford: 43:56

I said we argue behind the scenes, that- some of the biggest arguments are about jokes.

Januel Mercado: 44:02

Jim is the one that protects our jokes. We always want to cut them. No! Okay, if you want the movie to be 20% less funny.

Joel Crawford: 44:10

But an example, you know, that we had, there was a lot of fun with like, Puss in Boots and Kitty Softpaws not trusting each other. And there was a whole I think it was a good minute of-

Januel Mercado: 44:26

peeing jokes.

Joel Crawford: 44:26

Yes, peeing jokes. Very classy. But it was it was each of them. Like when they got into the dark forest, they were- they were kind of debating over who gets to hold the map. And Puss was like- like, the dog just really has to go to the bathroom. It's like it's fun. He's like, he's so not the adventurer. And he's like, guys, I gotta go wee wee. And like, then Puss like shows up next to him.

Januel Mercado: 44:52

Like at a urinal.

Joel Crawford: 44:52

Yeah, like at the urinal going hey, how about me and you ditch Kitty?

Januel Mercado: 44:56

And then the camera pans and reveals Kitty is standing as if she's peeing at the urinal to pretend like be casual. And it says the same thing to dog.

Joel Crawford: 45:06

It was, it was a very funny scene. It was probably one of the funniest moments, but it, it actually, like slowed the momentum down. And as we were working on this, momentum was a big kind of big picture thing we wanted. Again, bringing things back to the philosophy within the story. This story is, is a race for people to get- everybody wants to get the thing that's going to fix their life.

Januel Mercado: 45:35

Urgency.

Joel Crawford: 45:36

And they're lacking appreciation and living in the moment. And so we wanted there to be this, this great momentum to the story that it moves. It doesn't move so fast, you'd lose connection with the characters, but it purposely moves until the very end when they kind of realised what's, what's important. And so anything that was butting up against that we were like, okay, well, we'll be grownups and cut it out of the movie.

Michael Wakelam: 46:00

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's really interesting point, because I find, even when I'm writing projects, you know, the hardest part of a film is the second half of the second act and keeping it moving, you know, that it doesn't lose that momentum. You know, you can have all of that fun in that first half. And then, as the stakes get higher, you've got to keep it, and yours just felt like a ride. And I feel like from that, there was so much- there's so much of a promise from that opening bar scene with the wolf, that you were just waiting throughout the film. You knew that he was coming back. And it was this roller coaster that you took us on in that time, you know, with the occasional little bit of hearing from him. And yeah, I thought it was- the momentum was fantastic. Oh thank you.

Januel Mercado: 46:50

That's awesome, yeah.

Joel Crawford: 46:52

I remember we- in another like Western we kind of referenced was Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid. That you had all those all those kinds of(unintelligible)

Januel Mercado: 47:01

Yeah.

Joel Crawford: 47:01

Yeah. That were- they'd always be on the horizon. And they were I mean, in Butch Cassidy they essentially represent death. Like our time is up.

Januel Mercado: 47:10

Yeah. Again you want to you want to feel that urgency, I think.

Joel Crawford: 47:14

Yeah. And so there was there's so many like, references that it's funny because we reference all these like, like, spaghetti westerns, Kurosawa movies, these are all like, three hours(unintelligible). Like, 'The Good, The Bad and The Ugly'. And then, and then we mix it with this, like, okay, this thing has to move. There's all these kind of homages, but they're mashed up with like a different energy. And it creates a new thing. But there's plenty of love for spaghetti western, in this.

Michael Wakelam: 47:46

Yeah, you can, you can feel it all the way through. But yeah, that's, you know, that story momentum is, you know, you didn't feel the threat every moment, but you knew it was there, and what a great plot device, you know, having a race, but the race is not, it's not before your eyes the entire time. So, you know, each time you glimpse it, you're reminded that this is a race to the end. So it's a really great device to keep you moving.

Joel Crawford: 48:14

We wanted to also like find ways to keep stakes and keep suspense coming back, especially when it comes to the bounty hunter wolf. One of the cool like finds was that we can do it, not just with visuals, but also audio that we were early on, like, inspired by Ennio Morricone's music, that, like, 'Once Upon a Time in the West', that harmonica.

Januel Mercado: 48:42

Charles Bronson.

Joel Crawford: 48:44

And we threw to our composer, like can we get a great whistled melody from the wolf, and so that

Michael Wakelam: 48:52

It was perfect, yeah.

Joel Crawford: 48:53

It shouldn't feel scary. It should- but the first time you hear it, it's not a scary melody. It's when it's tied with your introduction to the wolf. Thereafter, every time

Januel Mercado: 49:06

-you associate it with

Joel Crawford: 49:07

Yeah, that- and it almost has this kind of this effect of like lightning and thunder, but in reverse, where you hear the sound and you know the visual is coming. And, and one of like, I think one of the fun moments that I think we really like is when I- as I mentioned earlier, when people were blowing up into confetti. And again, the absurdity you're like, this is crazy. But it, like time kind of stops. And you hear the wolf's whistle, and the hair is standing up on Puss' arms and you're just waiting as the camera wraps around to see that wolf in the background. That was some of like, we were just having so much fun with like, not treating this movie for any age. Really. We're not like bringing it down. We're like, we're using kind of every technique we could to to elevate how we tell the story of Puss feeling fear. And so that was just- so it's such a fun geeky thing to get to do.

Michael Wakelam: 50:13

Yeah. Last question, because I know you guys have gonna get a dash. There's I mean, there's a whole other podcast episode where we could drill in- into the creative decisions, the look and the style and, you know, maybe be great to chat with Nate Wragg at some point as well. But what I find is really interesting is not just the painterly approach. And I know there was a lot of, you know, technical genius that kind of goes into the way that works. But the balance of that with the kind of more realistic fur and you know that- those elements. And balance is a really difficult thing to achieve when melding styles together. Was that a challenge in dailies to keep consistency there?

Januel Mercado: 50:55

Like maybe developing that that look, I think, right? Just as a baseline to jump off of.

Joel Crawford: 51:00

I remember we definitely had that challenge in the beginning, because there was the early attempts.

Januel Mercado: 51:05

The wedge tests.

Joel Crawford: 51:06

And yeah, Nate Wragg was kind of helming this style even before we came to the project where they're trying to find this painterly style. The- it was so flat and painterly early on that you almost couldn't appreciate all the technical achievements, and it looked almost like After Effects. Where it like- you're just like you had no idea how hard they worked to get this and, and you couldn't you couldn't feel Puss in Boots.

Januel Mercado: 51:31

Tangible, yeah.

Joel Crawford: 51:32

He's still like a little cat and-

Januel Mercado: 51:34

-Yeah, you wanna be able to pick him up, give him cuddles.

Joel Crawford: 51:37

So I remember they hit the wedge test where they're like, here's full CG. Here's the completely stylized. And then they have a few more in the middle. And this is one of those cases where it's really exciting where DreamWorks is going, having 'The Bad Guys' earlier this year, which is a phenomenal movie and also approached the style. And being able to be within the same studio, we pulled up- they pulled up and did a version of'The Bad Guys' execution of fur on Puss in Boots and we were able to off of that go, okay, it's like that, but just go a little bit this way. And so really as a studio, like building on the innovation that everybody's doing was a fantastic gift being the movie right after bad guys.

Michael Wakelam: 52:22

Yeah, yeah. Fantastic. All right, gents. You've you've crafted something wonderful here. That's for sure. I've heard and read many reviews that agree with me. So just wishing you the best for a great release with long legs and a great award season. Congrats on the Golden Globes nomination and all the best for the holidays.

Januel Mercado: 52:41

Thank you Michael. And I just wanted to say that like this was so much fun. And again, we're all like, movie geeks and nerds right? We just love talking about movies and would would love to come back if if you'll have us to deep dive more on like the making of this because there's so much more like, like stories and easter eggs and visual things and little details that we put in the movie that we just love to continue geeking out with you.

Michael Wakelam: 53:05

Yeah, love to do that!

Joel Crawford: 53:07

Thank you Michael this was fun.

Michael Wakelam: 53:10

Thanks for joining me, and again, thanks for supporting the show throughout the year. We'll be back in just a few weeks with some fantastic guests and conversations. So go ahead and subscribe so you don't miss any episodes. If you'd like to get in touch or to shoot us any feedback, then please email podcast@thecreatorssociety.org. You can find me on most of the socials. As mentioned at the top please subscribe, like or share the podcast if you're enjoying it. Thanks to Rich Dickerson for the music Mike Rocha for the mix, and our exec producer, Eric Miller. Thanks again. See you next time.